Labyrinth

This week, we're twisting and turning our way through the deeply weird 1986 classic Labyrinth. Liz discusses experiencing it for the first time as an adult and what surprising (and highly controversial) casting decision she would change, Greg bravely tackles his fear of puppets and they both give credence to a fan theory that makes the whole thing a lot deeper. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:08

Hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of a really good podcast with Greg and Liz. And this week's episode has taught me a very important lesson about myself in that I cannot now, nor will I ever be able to spell the word labyrinth.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

It's tough.

SPEAKER_02 0:23

The amount of times I gave up. I was just like, all right, the why, the I, it was it was hard.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

What about the glimpse into Jim Henson's subconscious? Is he a crazy person? I mean, it's it's like where does this come from? Like some of these.

SPEAKER_02 0:39

Well, I I have a little bit of intel into where it came from. I did some research. Now, let me start by saying we're doing the movie Labyrinth. I think that I got this confused with Pan's Labyrinth.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Yeah, it's a very different movie.

SPEAKER_02 0:53

It's a very different movie. When she came out, and there was the maze. I was like, oh, it's a maze.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01

Like I kind of thought that the labyrinth was like, I don't know, like an not an escape room, but like, you know, more like puzzles and whatever. And oh no. I was like, no, this is very literal.

SPEAKER_00 1:12

Greek mythology. I mean, like, this is, I think the labyrinth does sort of represent the subconscious. I think that's what it's supposed to be.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

I I think we'll get into the theories about it, but overall, I had never seen this movie. I knew of it, but I'd never seen it. I did not care for it.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

This has the same sort of following as I dare to say, like a like a nightmare before Christmas. This is like a beloved movie.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

It is a beloved movie, and I think nostalgia plays a big part in that. It felt very 80s and not necessarily in a good way. The 80s love to beat you over the head with weird shit. And Labyrinth is the perfect example of that. I mean, the scene with Ludo when he was in the tree and they had just basically like fetuses attacking him.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

Yeah, there's a lot going on in this thing. You you mentioned the phrase beating us over the head with it. It's like, do we have to see well? You know what? You can't say anything negative about Bowie, but he's he's got some prominent junk in this thing.

SPEAKER_02 2:13

I can say some negative things about Bowie. I can, and I'm gonna go there. I'm gonna go.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

I'll tell you one thing right now. Incredible soundtrack. He made good songs with puppets. I disagree. I disagree. Really?

SPEAKER_02 2:25

I'm gonna all right. You know what? I was gonna save this. I'm gonna get to it. I'm gonna put this out right right out the gate.

SPEAKER_00 2:30

All right, people can turn it off.

SPEAKER_02 2:32

This is I know this is like gonna be a wildly unpopular statement. I think that David Bowie was miscast.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

I don't know. For for those of the you listening, like maybe on a run or like I I'm a ghast. There there is David Bowie. I knew this is never miscast.

SPEAKER_02 2:51

I knew this is gonna like knock your socks off, okay? He's the most magical human that there is. I have threefold reasons why I think that he was miscast, okay? Are you ready? Yeah, he was David Bowie the entire time. Every time I saw him, I said, There's David Bowie. And that's not good in a movie like this. You know, I was thinking about in a league of their own when Deborah Winger, after she farted in Shirley McClain's face, yeah, she said that she thought that Madonna would be an Elvis movie. So she thought that Madonna in a League of Their Own was going to be, it was basically just a vehicle for Madonna to be Madonna. And at no point in A League of Their Own did I look at Madonna and think that's Madonna. She was all the way May, every time. This was David Bowie. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:39

Well, let me tell you something. I I I'm gonna say this if David Bowie wasn't a wildly famous songwriter, musician, showman, basically like fashion icon, right? Yeah, this this would be if if those jobs didn't exist, this would be the only other job David Bowie would be qualified for the Goblin King.

SPEAKER_02 4:00

So also, my next reason is that he wasn't scary. I was never scared of him. I I was thinking about the Queen in Return to Oz, and she was terrifying. Like that was a scary, scary lady. That's true. And David Bowie was I mean, he was prancing around, he was singing, he was bored.

SPEAKER_00 4:22

Do you think that he was somehow through years like transcending through? I mean, the guy's not even alive, but I do I I'm turned on by David Bowie.

SPEAKER_02 4:33

I am not. Are you serious?

SPEAKER_00 4:35

No, no, like the guy oozes like Prince, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 4:39

Charisma. You know, he's got that that what's the word I'm looking for? That charisma?

SPEAKER_00 4:45

No, like the French cluster and I don't know what.

SPEAKER_02 4:48

No, like how they're kind of like fluid, like that kind of fluid in-between male and female energy.

SPEAKER_00 4:57

That is true.

SPEAKER_02 4:59

And Prince, like you can see how he could steal someone's girl, but David Bowie, I don't know. I just didn't, I wasn't feeling it, and I didn't like the music. I felt it was very not memory, like name a song.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

Dance magic dance, jump.

SPEAKER_02 5:15

Yeah, yeah. Are you listening to dance magic dance at the gym while you're running? Yeah, it might start.

SPEAKER_00 5:22

Yeah. Those orange things, I mean that was Chili Down.

SPEAKER_02 5:27

I I did like, but that also wasn't Bowie.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

It was I I just but the I didn't that was the scariest part of the whole movie to me. I had a I had a fast forward. I when I was a kid, you had to fast forward, not now. I don't like it.

SPEAKER_02 5:40

I mean, I just I don't know. I was thinking, like, what if Tim Curry was Jared?

SPEAKER_00 5:47

Okay, look, that's that's the only name that you could have put out there that's like respectable. Tim Curry can do everything.

SPEAKER_02 5:55

We're gonna go through it, and they did consider a lot of other people, but I don't know. I felt like this was an Elvis movie, this was a Bowie movie. The whole time I'm like, there's David Bowie. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 6:07

Yeah, so I I have to say that like I never kind of looked at it from that point of view, and I see what you're saying, and you're probably right about that. I just don't think that that I think that David Bowie is so cool and talented that it just doesn't matter. Like, I it's it's like, oh, because it's like, yes, that's David Bowie, but also, oh, David Bowie's actually the goblin king? Okay, yeah, I'm I could buy that. You know what I mean? Yeah, I mean I could buy him as the goblin king, but but did you so you're gonna just pass over the fact that this guy's is he wearing like Lululemon fucking like what's going on?

SPEAKER_02 6:37

And and why is he stuffing that thing is he stuffing it? You think I don't know. I mean, I would imagine David Bowie is wee, like he's a wee little man. Is he oh see, I would dude.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

I feel like the end I feel like David Bowie definitely has a well endowed.

SPEAKER_02 6:50

No, I'm talking like height and size wise. I feel like he's a small man. It says he's five foot ten, which anyone who googles celebrity heights knows if you say you're five foot ten, you're probably like five foot eight.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

Okay, fine.

SPEAKER_02 7:02

Because any man who's five foot ten is gonna say that they're six feet.

SPEAKER_00 7:06

So what is is he like notoriously is this is not it's not that kind of podcast, but like is I just feel like oh, this is that kind of podcast. Yeah, it is he is is there anything out there that says that like he's notoriously well endowed? Like like like a rasp.

SPEAKER_02 7:21

Like a rasp. Is David Bowie well endowed? I I gotta be honest, nothing like they didn't finish my sentence. You know, when you Google something and they finish your sentence and you're like, okay, I'm not the only person that's Googled this. So this is news. Yes, AI says yes, David Bowie was widely reported to be well endowed by his prominent stage costumes, film roles, and accounts from contemporaries. His tight-fitting pants and cod piece as Jareth the Goblin King drew massive public attention to his physical build. Okay, okay. I mean, oh Debbie Harry, the blondie singer, mentioned in her memoir that Bowie once casually flashed her with his large, notorious penis backstage. Well, that's sexual assault. She's like, what the hell is that thing? That's not okay. But anyways, all right, so let's talk about the making of the movie. All right, and this is where I actually think that you may not agree with me, but we'll get into this. So Brian Fraud says that Labyrinth was first discussed between himself and director Jim Henson. Both agreed to work on another project together, and Fraud suggested that the film should feature goblins. On the same journey, he pictured a baby surrounded by goblins and this strong visual image, along with Fraud's insight that goblins traditionally steal babies.

SPEAKER_00 8:41

Everyone knows that.

SPEAKER_02 8:42

Someone check that guy's hard drive. Yeah, no shit, right? Like, what are we doing? They want to do a lighter picture because the heaviness of the dark crystal. Have you ever seen the dark crystal?

SPEAKER_00 8:54

I have. It's another one that's beloved.

SPEAKER_02 8:56

Is it you probably hate it? Maybe okay. I don't, it's not because it's beloved, I hate it. No, I know that like this there was too many puppets. They needed to tone down the puppets. I like you look at like a Muppet Christmas Carol, and it's like, you know, 25% human beings, 75% puppets, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

Okay, so they got the ratio wrong, you're saying.

SPEAKER_02 9:22

Yeah, I think they got the ratio wrong. And I think that none of these puppets are charming. None of these puppets are easy to look at. I think Hoggle could have been a small person.

SPEAKER_00 9:31

Yeah, and here's the thing about this, right? Like, here's the reality. Jennifer Connolly, the first troll or whatever anything I run into, I'm having I'm having a dissociative experience. I'm having a panic attack and I'm passing away and I'm not moving.

SPEAKER_02 9:44

But she already, I want to talk about her mental health in a little bit, but yeah, she already was like on a weird, a weird path. And there's actually some theories about it. But, anyways, they started discussing it. They had a meeting with children's author Dennis Lee and asked him to write a novella on which the script could be based. Then they approached Terry Jones to write the film script as his daughter Lisa had just read Eric the Viking and suggested that they try him as a screenwriter. I've never heard of that. Do you know what that is?

SPEAKER_00 10:13

No.

SPEAKER_02 10:13

Okay. But apparently she really liked the book. I guess it's a book. The thing was, Jones is credited as writing the screenplay, but he says that the finished film differs greatly from his original version. He says, I didn't feel it was very much mine. I always felt it fell between two stories. Jim wanted it to be one thing, I wanted to be something else. His version of the script was about the world and the people who are more interested in manipulating the world than actually burying themselves at all. In Joan's original script, Jareth merely seems all-powerful to begin with and is actually using labyrinth to keep people from getting to his heart. He says Bowie's involvement in the film had a significant impact on the direction taken with the film. He intended for the audience to not see the center of the labyrinth prior to Sarah reaching it. So like he would have been more hands-off and like maybe would have appeared, but you wouldn't have seen like the goblins dancing around with the baby and all that kind of stuff. And he felt it robbed the film of a significant hook. Henson decided he wanted Jareth to sing and appear throughout the film, which was something that Jones considered the wrong decision, with the thought of Bowie starring in the film in mind. So I agree. Like that's what I think that would have been better. I think having him dancing around with the baby and he wasn't scary.

SPEAKER_00 11:31

I get that. You know, maybe Henson Henson's not like maybe he doesn't do scary.

SPEAKER_02 11:37

Maybe Henson should stick to just doing the puppets.

SPEAKER_00 11:41

Fucking Fraggle Rock and shit. You know?

SPEAKER_02 11:43

Maybe like he shouldn't have been the brain behind like what the actual movie was. He should have been more of the ideas person with what the puppets were.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

Well, we say that as if like it's not this, it's it's wildly successful.

SPEAKER_02 11:56

I mean it wasn't.

SPEAKER_00 11:57

That's the thing.

SPEAKER_02 11:58

That's it was like he was like borderline suicidal after this came out because this was like his dream thing, and he felt that he put so much into this. And also, Jim Henson, you have to think like he was probably on top of the world. I mean, he had everything, he had success after success, right? At this point, like you'd already seen all the other things. He probably was looking at it like I can do no wrong. He was too big for his britches, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 12:24

He may have been. I mean, big bird.

SPEAKER_02 12:26

Yep. In an early draft of the script, Jareth enters Sarah's house in the guise of Robin Zakar, an author of the play she was performing in. She does not want her brother taken away by the goblins, and Jareth snatches him against her will, which he was more villainous in it. His final confrontation with Sarah tells her he would much rather have a queen than a little goblin prince. She ends up kicking him, I believe, in the balls in disgust and transforms him into a powerless, snivelling goblin. I would have liked to see that.

SPEAKER_00 12:56

That's pretty cool. So yeah, I I I have a lot of problems with the beginning, too.

SPEAKER_02 13:00

Okay, should we talk about the beginning? They sent the script, this script, to Bowie, who found it lacked humor and considered withdrawing his involvement to the project as a result. To ensure Bowie's involvement, Henson asked Jones to do a bit more to the script to make it humorous. So they changed it all.

SPEAKER_00 13:19

Who whoever thinks of Bowie as funny?

SPEAKER_02 13:23

I don't know. I mean, I guess I don't I don't really know that much about it. Maybe I don't know the guy.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

Very cool though.

SPEAKER_02 13:29

I mean, cool, yes, for sure. But but like is he in a position to be making script changes to a puppet movie? If they want that freaking prancing around, and I mean I would imagine that David Bowie probably was a huge draw for it. But did you need a huge draw at that point? Because it was the 80s and it was Hanson.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

Yeah, Hanson's the draw, right? I mean, the freaking puppets.

SPEAKER_02 13:53

So it had a budget of 25 million, it grossed 12.9 million in the US, but was a success in the UK getting 34 million, which was still not great. Broke Jim Henson's heart. He knew he had something great, but c critics hated it. But like I don't know. He wanted to prove puppetry wasn't just for kids.

SPEAKER_00 14:13

And I guess you could say that it did that, but oh see, I always I always felt like this was a kind of a kids' movie.

SPEAKER_02 14:19

I mean, my kids didn't did not care for it. That's for sure.

SPEAKER_00 14:23

No, my kids were freaked out by it.

SPEAKER_02 14:25

They don't want to watch 80s movies that have nothing to do with anything. Like it's one thing to watch Return to Oz when Dylan was like obsessed with Wicked and then like all these other things. It's another to make these weird movies.

SPEAKER_00 14:35

I will say this though, in terms of like 80s movies that involve some puppetry of some kind, it it is I I consider Never Ending Story far superior.

SPEAKER_02 14:45

Never ending story is there puppetry in that?

SPEAKER_00 14:48

Well, I mean, that freaking wolf's not real, and you talking wolf's not real, and neither is like that snail rider guy the snail. You know what?

SPEAKER_02 14:56

I I don't know that I remember the first never ending story. I know we didn't uh it was like our third episode. We did the never ending story. Yeah. The second one was always bigger for me. I kept going back to Return to Oz, and that was like what probably 60, 40 humans to puppets.

SPEAKER_00 15:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:11

And that I felt like, yeah, I liked that. I think we could have used a few more humans in it.

SPEAKER_00 15:17

I think you're probably right. Yeah, I think that I think that there was a there's an issue with the ratio.

SPEAKER_02 15:21

There was just too many. By the time that little rat thing came out, Diddy's whatever his name was, I was like, oh god.

SPEAKER_00 15:28

The worm and the fucking this and uh, yeah, it's there's a lot.

SPEAKER_02 15:32

There was a lot. Originally, they intended the protagonist of the film to be a king whose baby had been put under enchantment, princess from a fantasy world, and a young girl from Victorian England. They made the teenage girl from America to make the film more commercial. He wished to make the idea of taking responsibility for one's life a central thought of the film, which I guess she's like 14 in it, you know? Like, I don't know. So listen to this list of people that tried out to be Sarah, okay? Helena Bonham Carter, Jane Krakowski, Yasmin Bleith, Sarah Jessica Parker, Marissa Tomei, Laura Dern, Ali Sheedy, and Mia Sarah.

SPEAKER_00 16:12

Everyone's who's anyone, right? I mean, I'd love to work with puppets. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:17

I mean, Henson, probably. And I mean, most of these girls were probably 80, 85. I'd say most of them were probably between 12 and 16.

SPEAKER_00 16:27

That's crazy that they're already in the game.

SPEAKER_02 16:30

Krakowski, Shady, and Corman were considered the top candidates, but then Jennifer Conley popped up out of nowhere and won Jim Henson over. I didn't love Jennifer Conley either.

SPEAKER_00 16:40

She's played some interesting roles, tell you that.

SPEAKER_02 16:42

Well, it's funny because like the whole time I'm watching it, I'm like, God, we just watched her in Top Gun.

SPEAKER_00 16:46

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And uh, I always think of one specific role. I can't get that out of my head. I wish I never watched that movie.

SPEAKER_02 16:52

Of her Republican for a Dream. With the double with the double dildo.

unknown 16:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:00

You know what role I always think of her with? There was this movie, I can't even remember the name of it. It was her and that this other girl and this boy. It was like a coming of age. It probably was right around the time that she was in this one. They were just like friends. It was in the 80s. Oh god, let me let me look it up real quick because I feel like let me go to the film Aug. Seven Minutes in Heaven. And it's just like basically it was like a bunch of teenage friends. Maddie Corman was the other one. Wait, oh my god, I went down a rabbit hole with this one. Maddie Corman, who's I'm gonna show you a picture of her. Hold on, and you're gonna know exactly who she is. Maddie Corman. Can you see it?

SPEAKER_00 17:43

Wait a minute. No. Oh my god, she's like a f is she uh she was in Scringe? She looks like a freaking she looks like one of those people.

SPEAKER_02 17:53

Some kind of wonderful she was in. Let me see. She was in Swingers, made in Manhattan. I don't know. Like a butt. She's been in a ton of stuff. If you're listening, Google her. However, so she's married to this guy, Jace Alexander, who was a he was an actor. He was in a bunch of stuff. He was the robber and clueless, you know, the this is an Alaya, you know, the one that holds share. Okay. That guy. He was arrested for child pornography. And he, I believe, went to jail, and she wrote like a one-woman show about it. She stayed married to him. She wrote a one-woman show about it, did like a Broadway show about it, and they're still together to this day. What the fuck? Right?

SPEAKER_01 18:39

Crazy.

SPEAKER_02 18:40

Anyways, I yeah, I went down a little bit of a rabbit hole. Yeah, what are you gonna do? So, anyways, Jareth was they wanted like a contemporary musician for the role. So Sting, Prince, Mick Jagger, and Michael Jackson were all considered before choosing Bowie, which I think that I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 18:57

I think the right choice.

SPEAKER_02 18:58

I think Sting could have done a good job.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

Sting couldn't have Sting act. No, he's he's weird. He says that like tantric sex. He hasn't like ejaculated in 17 years or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 19:10

He like has sex for like eight hours, gross. Yeah, but he specifically only wanted two people in the movie.

SPEAKER_00 19:17

He wanted two people, two human beings. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 19:20

So let's talk about Jareth, okay? According to them, he embodies Sarah's fears, desires, and confusion at the threshold between childhood and adulthood. Powerful insofar as she invests him with power. So she gives him the power over her. He's not pure evil, but a seductive antagonist, a projection of her imagination that tests her at every stage. He's a manifestation of real life things. So if you look in her room, like you can see a lot of stuff in the movie in her room in the beginning. It's kind of similar to the Wizard of Oz. A lot of this I kept coming back to reminding me of the Wizard of Oz. It's a lot about her growing up, her sexuality, her independence. My problem is so he's like 40 and she's 14.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

So is he like like a shadow of her? Like all the things that re like the that represent the the hidden parts of her, essentially.

SPEAKER_02 20:07

Kind of, yes. So there is a theory, and this is just a theory. This is a fan theory. It's not something that's been like whatever, but I thought it was interesting. Trigger warning, this is about sexual assaults. That okay, so her mom in the movie left her dad. She was an actress. You can see this in like she's got a lot of roles and like paper, newspaper clippings and stuff. Her mom left her dad and started dating one of her co-stars. This is something where, like, in the novella, it says that she was dating her co-stars. You can see a picture of her mom with the co-star, and it's David Bowie in her bedroom in the beginning of the movie. Okay. So there is a fan theory that this man he basically groomed her and sexually assaulted her. And that's why she's so obsessed with fantasy because it allows her to escape. Okay. And if you think about it, like you look at some of the things, okay. He's an adult man who's intensely interested in a young girl. He offers her power, romance, escape from her family. He gives her a drug to make her forget things, which the peach that he gave her was was drugged or whatever. It made her hallucinate. The ballroom scene, which what the fuck was that?

SPEAKER_00 21:21

What the fuck was that?

SPEAKER_02 21:22

What the fuck was that?

SPEAKER_00 21:23

Totally.

SPEAKER_02 21:24

At the end, she when she finally like comes through, she says, You have no power over me anymore, which is very much sexual ab sexual abuse thing.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

Like it makes more sense in a few ways. Like one way is that when there is like significant sexual assault or abuse on a child who's like, you know, young, you your typical response as an adult is like a fight or flight, you know, sympathetic nervous system kicks in and you get the fuck out of there. But when you're a kid, you can't fight and you can't flee. So you can like dissociate or flee into your own subconscious and you know, create either a personality or a world. That can handle that kind of trauma or some some other. So maybe she has to become stronger and she has to like have this like hero's journey type, you know, thing within her own subconscious, and then like gather some confidence to come back stronger and like overpower him in her own mind and and become strong enough to face this person, right? I mean, there's that, and there's also like the wanting to get rid of the other kid as like maybe like a subconscious protective, I don't want this kid to get hurt the way I got hurt. So like, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 22:33

But that's well, that's a reach that I've I've never heard, but I guess I uh it was something I I yeah, I saw it in an article, and I was like, you know what? There does seem to be a lot of like arrested development going on. Like our stepmom, even in the beginning, says, you know, I wish you would date, like I wish you would go out and do things, but you don't do that, and that's why you have to babysit, which let's we'll get it.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

Like, you know, that guy that wrote Peter Pan, I think it's like JM Barry or something like that. His brother died really young, and you know, his mother really kind of never got over it. And it was like this like he wanted to stay young forever, so that his mom, like, you know, there's like this weird sort of trauma bond thing. His mom wanted to stay young forever, and he never really developed because he was trying to stay young so hard. It was like this arrested development, like you said. Like, I think like even he was like never no puberty, nothing, like until like really old. It's it's crazy what your brain can do.

SPEAKER_02 23:27

Yeah. No, I I think I mean, I think there is definitely a deeper layer. I don't think it's just you know, she's a young girl going through you know her burgeoning sexuality. No, because yeah, whatever.

SPEAKER_00 23:41

She was like psychotic when it came to like the kid. It's like the kid's been crying for two minutes. Relax. Like, relax. Okay, wait, let's not like do like weird hopes and phrase.

SPEAKER_02 23:51

Let's talk about the movie. Okay. All right, let's talk about the movie.

SPEAKER_00 23:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:55

So I thought this was gonna be one of those fake out openers where it's like a fantasy scene and then it turns into no, but like she's just a big nerd that's yeah, talking about like what is she talking about?

SPEAKER_00 24:07

Right. You think the goblins are listening?

SPEAKER_02 24:09

The goblins are listening, okay. So she goes home to the house that she lives at with her dad, her stepmom, and their her new brother. All right, and it's funny to watch this because, like, first of all, I have a baby that's around the same age as Toby, and like my kids adore the I know obviously they're full siblings, it's not the same thing, but like to see her like hate this fucking baby so much was so funny. So she comes home and like her stepmom is like, Oh, the dog stays outside. What? Like, I don't even like animals, and I wouldn't do that. It's gonna rain. You're gonna make the dog go in the garage. That's crazy. So they're like, I wish you would date, but you can't, so you have to babysit. Now, as a parent, and you are also a parent, yes, who in God's name would ever leave their child with babysitter that doesn't want to babysit, and like hates the baby, hates the baby. They're so insane for this, and the whole time I'm feeling bad. The baby's crying, she's not picking up the baby, and I'm like, I as a mom, I'm dying. Remy is actually crying as I'm watching this scene. I was like, listen, Remy, I can't deal with you right now. Yeah, but I gotta focus on Toby right now, but pick up the fucking baby, pick up the fucking baby, pick up so I think it's it's on the parents, too, really. Well, yeah, and then at the end of the movie, when they come home when she's back, they're like, Sarah, are you home? It's like I fucking hope so.

SPEAKER_01 25:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:40

There's a baby here, she's the babysitter. Like, where would she be? It was wild.

SPEAKER_00 25:46

Yeah, or anyhow, one of your weird excursions again. You know what I mean? Like, I know, I know, like oh good, you're home.

SPEAKER_02 25:54

Great, that's great news.

SPEAKER_00 25:55

And I think it's funny that like there's like she's playing this game that just happens to be real and happening inside of her house in the moment.

SPEAKER_02 26:02

But is it all this is what I mean? Like, you know, similar to the Wizard of Oz, is this in her head? Yeah, granted, she didn't have a traumatic injury, but is she just imagining? Is she like laying in her bed hallucinating?

SPEAKER_00 26:13

I think that she's uh it's either something like you mentioned, that's the that's the hard side of it, that's the horrific side of it, or like you know, maybe uh she's just like super stressed or you know, fantasizing and just you know, refusing. I don't know, but it's it's yeah, this I think this is like a dream.

SPEAKER_02 26:31

Yeah, I was gonna say it could be a dream.

SPEAKER_00 26:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:34

So the woman who was her mom in the pictures, her real mom, was her mom. It was Jennifer Conley's mom. Yeah, they took pictures, little fun fact. So, anyways, they leave Sarah with this baby, huge mistake. Please, if anyone out there is a new parent, just a little piece of advice from two veterans. Do not leave your kids with somebody that doesn't want to. So I'll leave Remy with Crosby, he's 12. I'll leave her with him to like go pick Dylan up from dance, you know, like down the road. And sometimes he'll be like, Can you just take her? And I'm always like, Yeah, absolutely. Like sometimes, like most of the time, he's like, sure, no problem. Like, he'll sit with her. It's literally 10 minutes, but like when he doesn't want to, I would never make him stay with her because a I don't trust you to like watch her. Like, you have to want to watch her to watch her. You know, like it's crazy. Um, so she's like, Oh my god, should I say it? Should I say it? I shouldn't say it. I shouldn't say it. I should say it. I should say it's like, girl, just fucking say it or don't.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:39

And then she's like, Oh my god, I didn't mean it. It's like you just said it like three seconds ago. I wish the goblins would take him away.

SPEAKER_00 27:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she's like, Well, I'm playing with fire now.

SPEAKER_02 27:51

And then Jareth shows up and she's like, Oh no, it's like, what what I mean? If you really believed in this, what did you think was gonna happen?

SPEAKER_00 28:00

And he's at the ball. Is that when he's at the ball?

SPEAKER_02 28:02

Yeah, I don't even understand the ball, to be honest. I didn't understand a lot of it. She's like, Oh, I didn't mean it. It's like, well, it it feels like you did.

SPEAKER_00 28:09

Yeah, you definitely meant it.

SPEAKER_02 28:11

Then she gets into the actual labyrinth, he shows her the labyrinth. This is the moment where I was like, Oh my god, it's a maze. Yeah, it's definitely a maze. Yeah, I kind of thought it would be like she would have a series of tests, which I guess she kind of did, but I didn't realize it would be a literal maze. And she's like, Well, this doesn't seem hard. It's like, well, no, it does.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

Yeah, I know it seems awful, and there's monsters everywhere.

SPEAKER_02 28:34

I'm terrible at mazes, though. I always start from the end. Really? Yeah, it's easier. Um, so and she goes, Come on, feet. Like you're giving your feet like a little talking to?

SPEAKER_00 28:51

This kid's weird. She's a weird kid.

SPEAKER_02 28:53

And the blouse, I the whole time she's running in this way that it's like, are you just running this way to make your blouse do this?

SPEAKER_00 29:02

Like a pirate shirt.

SPEAKER_02 29:03

Yeah, it was like a pirate shirt. And then she had those terrible loafers on that I couldn't even look at.

unknown 29:08

I know.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

It's it's like you're right.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

There's a lot of shit going on. What's the first thing she runs into?

SPEAKER_02 29:17

The worm is the first thing. Well, no, Hoggle, who's pissing in the water.

SPEAKER_00 29:24

And he's and he's and he's ugly as sin.

SPEAKER_02 29:26

Don't you think it could have been a little person?

SPEAKER_00 29:29

Oh, you were oh, like literally, well, because Hoggle kind of is like a deformable No, I know, but like not a puppet.

SPEAKER_02 29:34

Like he could have been a person, but like a little person.

SPEAKER_00 29:37

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:38

Yeah, yeah. You know, I was thinking like I'm rewatching Game of Thrones right now, and I was thinking like, what's his name?

SPEAKER_00 29:46

Tyrion.

SPEAKER_02 29:46

Tyrion, what like he could have done with that role? Because the puppet made it hard, like he was such a conflicted character. The whole time I'm like, is he good? Is he bad? I can't tell. But without being able to like have emotions on his face, it was very hard to like get invested in this character. And I was like, if you were a person, it could have done so much more to like give him a little bit of a little bit of a little bit a little more depth.

SPEAKER_00 30:07

Because that's what's so scary about the puppets to me, because like their emotion, like you don't really know what's on a puppet's mouth. No, yeah, it's scary as hell.

SPEAKER_02 30:16

It is scary as hell, and but there was too many, like it was hard to even really. I don't know, it's just and I I'm not a puppet hater. I don't want people to think that I'm like anti-puppet. Yeah, you know, I love a Muppet Christmas Carol. I love a Muppets Take Manhattan.

SPEAKER_00 30:32

Yeah, I think that puppets are inherently scary.

SPEAKER_02 30:37

The rats in Muppet Take Manhattan have so much charm. The little rat guy in this one did not.

SPEAKER_00 30:43

No charm.

SPEAKER_02 30:44

No charm.

SPEAKER_00 30:45

Not like Rizzo.

SPEAKER_02 30:46

No. So then there's the baby. I struggled with the baby too. He was in a weird teeth phase where like his front tooth was like half grown in. Yeah, yeah. And like I think they could have gotten a cuter baby. Maybe it was just a long shoot. And then no.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:05

Those things pop up like out of nowhere. Out of nowhere.

SPEAKER_00 31:08

Yeah. No, it's it's it can happen anytime. And they're like, oh great.

SPEAKER_02 31:10

I mean, it must have been a twin, right? I think they have I think they have to be twins if you're gonna have a baby, because they can only work like 10 minutes a day or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 31:19

Oh, and yeah, that's true. Yeah, but the Mary Kate Ashley Olson law.

SPEAKER_02 31:26

Yeah. No, I think it's the uh what is it? We talked about it in the uh in one of the episodes, the Duggar episode. There is a law named after a kid about like how much they can work. Anyway, so then they do Dance Magic Dance, and it actually reminded me a lot of me and Remy because we dance a lot. I do a lot of dancing for it.

SPEAKER_00 31:45

Dance Magic Dance is a good one.

SPEAKER_02 31:46

It wasn't bad. I mean, I just there was no song that I was like, I want to listen to this again.

SPEAKER_00 31:51

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 31:52

Well, I feel like sorry guys, I feel like I'm being such a hater and no, no, it's okay.

SPEAKER_00 31:56

Dance Magic Dance is a banger.

SPEAKER_02 31:58

It was one of the better ones. I the Chili Down was the only one that I was like, this is a bop.

SPEAKER_00 32:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is too. It is.

SPEAKER_02 32:05

So then they go to the bog of stench. Sounded terrible. I don't know. I this is where I started to really lose interest.

SPEAKER_00 32:13

I know. Well, I mean, that's why for me, it is sort of a kid's movie, but I get it though. I I I do get I think that the that angle that's on it now where like this is like her and her going into the depths of her subconscious and trying to find her way back out, yeah, is kind of a cool way to look at it.

SPEAKER_02 32:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:29

Makes the movie a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 32:30

I think if I because I look this up all after I watched the movie. And I think if I'd watched the movie with that in mind, it would have been a little bit more interesting. It felt very surface level to me when I was watching it.

SPEAKER_00 32:43

And puppets and like when you think of like, I don't know, like fairy tales and like whatever, when they talk to animals and and things like that, like those are the people who listen to like those weird, strange things do better because there's because I guess they in the same in the same way that represents like this magical sort of realm or unconscious. I I think it's like important to, I don't know, puppets though. It just freaks me out.

SPEAKER_02 33:09

Well, I I think about like, you know, we talked about the Wizard of Oz in the first episode, and she had such a strong bond with so many of them. And that fucking Ludo, like, she's not she doesn't have a bond with him. He can't even talk, you know? It's he's just like, ooh.

SPEAKER_00 33:25

He's a big fucking what is he? Like a hairy what are those things?

SPEAKER_02 33:30

Not dinosaurs, woolly mammoth, right? Kind of. Like he's like a combo woolly mammoth slash monkey.

SPEAKER_00 33:38

Like ox.

unknown 33:40

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 33:41

But that's what I mean. Like it just felt like they were like, let's just make a bunch of weird.

SPEAKER_00 33:46

Oh, they definitely did. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:48

You know? So then they uh, you know, she goes, she finds Toby. There's weird stairs, she can't get to Toby. She finally gets to Jareth, recites the lines from her book. This is when she tells him he has no power over her, and that kind of his power seemed to derive from her being afraid of him. Yes. So then he turns into the owl, and then she gets Toby back and goes back home.

SPEAKER_00 34:13

How did she get home?

SPEAKER_02 34:15

I think, well, I if it was in her imagination, I think that's pretty much all. She just wakes up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:20

The drugs wore off.

SPEAKER_02 34:21

Yeah. Let's talk about the ballroom scene.

SPEAKER_00 34:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 34:23

It was too sexual.

SPEAKER_00 34:25

Yeah. There's a scene like that in this movie Legend that I think we should kind of talk about. Well, it's Tim Curry's in it. Tom Cruise is in it.

SPEAKER_02 34:33

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 34:34

When is it from Legend? Oh man, this is like it might be Tom Cruise's first movie. Oh. It's actually really good. Tim Curry is like a weird monster guy. But it's like there's a weird dancing scene in that too, with like this weird guy who's like bad, and like this pretty young girl. It's like, what the fuck is happening?

SPEAKER_02 34:50

Wasn't there a scene like that in Return to Oz too? Maybe. Was that with the where they go to the Emerald City? I do feel like they loved a ballroom scene in the 80s.

SPEAKER_00 35:00

Yeah. And like what does that represent though? Like this is what it could be like, and it's like this is terrible.

SPEAKER_02 35:04

Or did they just want to have like a scene like that?

SPEAKER_00 35:08

You know? Waltzing in a ballroom is always big for a while. Yeah, that was always kind of like a thing that happens.

SPEAKER_02 35:14

Yeah. So then she gets Toby back, she gives him the bear that she was mad that the parents gave him, and she returns home. And then she sees all of the puppets there. And maybe that is like her finally feeling safe now that she has released the power that this creepy man had on her.

SPEAKER_00 35:32

And she lives with her dad. And maybe that's why she lives with her dad.

SPEAKER_02 35:35

Her dad and her evil stepmother.

SPEAKER_00 35:37

And her stepmom's evil?

SPEAKER_02 35:38

Kind of. I don't know. I don't know. I think we always want to believe that the stepmom is evil. You know what I actually thought was interesting is her mom abandoned her. And I was like, this sounds terrible, but I was like, I'd like to see more moms abandon their children in movies. Oh, yeah. Because it's always the dad. It's always the dad in the movies. And I think it's much more interesting because it's one of those things where it's like for a mother to abandon her children, things have to happen. I mean, granted, there are mental illness and all that stuff. Sure. Obviously, that happens. But like overall, like generally speaking, like some fucked up stuff has to happen for a mother to abandon her child. And I feel like that doesn't get played a lot.

SPEAKER_00 36:21

I think it's more common than people think, being in the world that I'm in.

SPEAKER_02 36:24

Lindsay Hubbard on Summerhouse, her mom abandoned her, and she's got serious issues. And it wasn't until she had a daughter that she was able to heal some of that. Which I think is a slippery slope, though, because it can be dangerous. I feel like the whole thing's dangerous.

SPEAKER_00 36:37

It's never ideal to like have a parent disappear.

SPEAKER_02 36:40

That's always it's always gonna cause some shit. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's I did think that was interesting. So so, anyways, overall, uh, you know, not my favorite.

SPEAKER_00 36:50

If you had a rotten tomatoes, it what would you put it at?

SPEAKER_02 36:55

I mean, I'm gonna give it some leeway being in the 80s. It frustrates me that it seemed like the movie I wanted to see was right there, and they changed it. I think also reading that David Bowie had a big part of that was why I also am upset with him.

SPEAKER_00 37:11

Yeah, they they they had to understand though, like David Bowie for all his strengths, if you let him go with it, he's going to make it weird.

SPEAKER_02 37:17

And he's gonna like make it like, oh, he wants to dance around like the scene with the baby in the labyrinth in the center, whatever, where they're like doing the you remind me of a babe.

SPEAKER_00 37:29

Well, babe, yeah, like that.

SPEAKER_02 37:30

Yeah, yeah. Is that like it's not scary? I wanted it to be scarier.

unknown 37:35

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_02 37:36

Yeah, I would have liked it to be creepier, like return to Oz is creepy.

SPEAKER_00 37:40

Yeah, that well, to me, this is plenty creepy. This is I I I have like a recurring nightmare when I was a kid of like falling down and then like Muppets laughing.

SPEAKER_02 37:50

Yeah, that that tracks. That tracks.

SPEAKER_00 37:53

Yeah, that was fucked up.

SPEAKER_02 37:54

But yeah, no, I don't know. I'd say I'd give it like uh 68%.

SPEAKER_00 38:00

Okay, well, that's not bad. I mean, I'd probably give it around that too. I think you know that sounds about right.

SPEAKER_02 38:08

I mean, it's not uh in terms of 80s movies, it's not it's not a great movie.

SPEAKER_00 38:12

It's not Top Gun, it's not I mean even The Princess Bride. Oh my god, that might be the best one.

SPEAKER_02 38:18

Yeah, maybe we should redo the Princess Bride so you could flight of the navigator. You missed you missed the Princess Bride.

SPEAKER_00 38:24

I would I would uh what does he say, like as you wish or as you yeah, as you wish, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:29

I mean, I'm glad we did it and I finally seen it, but I this is not going into the rotation, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_00 38:36

Okay, fair enough.

SPEAKER_02 38:36

It's not if I was a downer. I promise something I was.

SPEAKER_00 38:40

You were honest, and I think you opened my eyes a little bit. I and it's a new perspective on it. Yeah, I mean, maybe it's I don't know, maybe you there's a fresh new take on it. But yeah, all right.

SPEAKER_02 38:50

But they remake it. Make a different movie, don't remake this one. Make a different movie, but they could do it.

SPEAKER_00 38:57

Who could who's Bowie these days? Is that like a Harry Styles?

SPEAKER_02 39:02

I was I I feel like we talked about him all the time. I was thinking like a Timothy Chalamet.

SPEAKER_00 39:07

Chalamet probably, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:09

Or like I don't know, because uh I'm trying to think of like who uh Harry well, I don't know, does Harry Styles? Oh, he does act. He was in Dunkirk, I think.

SPEAKER_00 39:18

He was also in that movie, some Darling movie, whatever.

SPEAKER_02 39:21

I think that you could almost get like a Tom Holland to go against the grain.

SPEAKER_00 39:26

Do you know what's funny? Tom Holland is probably the biggest movie star in the world.

SPEAKER_02 39:29

I love him. I love him. When you think about it, right?

SPEAKER_00 39:31

So Super, whatever, I was Superman, Spider-Man and the hot SC are probably the two biggest movies right now, and he's in both.

SPEAKER_02 39:39

Him and Zendaya, I think Zendaya, Zendaya, I'm not sure which one it is. I apologize. Like the fact that they're together and they've like established this relationship, they've been together this long. She's way taller than him, she's a lot hotter than him.

SPEAKER_00 39:51

Whoa, I don't know about that.

SPEAKER_02 39:53

You you don't think that she's hotter than him?

SPEAKER_00 39:55

No.

SPEAKER_02 39:56

Zendaya and Tom Holland.

SPEAKER_00 39:58

I'm gonna tell you something. I don't see it with Zendaya. I don't see it.

SPEAKER_02 40:02

I have to disagree, but I think it makes them both cooler. They they make each other cooler.

SPEAKER_00 40:07

I think monogamy is cool.

SPEAKER_02 40:10

Oh, we know. I do. Yeah, now oh, we know, Greg. All right, well, on that note, I think we did it.

SPEAKER_00 40:20

I think we did it too.

SPEAKER_02 40:21

All right, so another one in the books. Another one in the books, and we'll be back next week with a real banger that we haven't even talked about yet. Okay, bye.